Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
jihad over this? #90687 02/20/2006 12:51 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
AllenAyres Offline OP
I type Like navaho
OP Offline
I type Like navaho
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
I don't generally post about such things on this site, mainly because I don't think anyone else is interested in this stuff... but since the site is pretty slow, I figure - why not? tipsy

[Linked Image]

.

[Linked Image]

.

Hardly worth rioting over, in my opinion. No matter what religion you are part of, what your faith... someone somewhere (probably lots of people, everywhere) have made fun of your leader, God, prophet, etc. Matt Stone even made fun of the lot of them in a not-so-long ago episode of South Park #503 in which Moses, Buddha, Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Jesus, Loa Tse, Krishna, Karl Rove and George Bush work together to defeat David Blaine tipsy

James Hudnall makes an important point -- in fact, the actual cartoons weren't that controversial until the Danish Imams added three fake cartoons to fuel the fire. Perhaps the Danish Government should immediately imprison them for hate crime, to appease the mob . . . .


Those who give no tolerance, should not expect any.


- Allen wavey
- What Drives You?
Sponsored Links
Re: jihad over this? #90688 02/20/2006 1:50 AM
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,042
Brett Offline
Moderator
Offline
Moderator
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,042
At it's core, I think this is more than the cartoon's themselves. Because of the oppressive nature of the governments in several aspects(mainly in the free speech dept) on top of the radical clerics who incite this kind of violence(with the one recently putting a bounty on the cartoonist heads in mind), it would seem that many in that area of the world have little moral common sense.

When read correctly, all mainstream religions are strictly peaceful. Yet we have individuals/groups like terrorists, clerics and Iranian presidents who bastardize it in the through process that if it isn't Islam, they are absolutely wrong. To them, that's power. Using negative media portrayals of the Iraq/afghan war, and anything negative Islam such as these cartoons as tools to say "hey, look at how the west is trying to invade/insult us". (I haven't seen Al-Jazeera show anything real pro-western for that matter) They tell these people that the 'west' is saying Mohammad and all Muslims are terrorists, when that is not the message that is intended. When asked in Afghanistan some rioters never even seen these cartoons.

To a lesser extent, political groups in this country do this same type of thing. It seems sometimes, that when one side pushes for something the other has to go the opposite direction and argue to hell with the other about it. Slightly off the topic, I think it's particularly childish, these people are supposed to govern the country and make laws to better our lives yet they are reduced to bickering and name calling. Anyway, then we have these moveon.org/shift boat organizations who spread wrongful/exaggerated accusations to further their own cause.

I wouldn't be against pressing charges against those who released the 3 fakes, don't want to make them matyrs tho. I guess we could attempt at a massive media leaflets/commercials whatever to get the point to them, in the best way possible of free speech/religious tolerance. I would doubts about it tho.

At least some of the national iraqi insurgents have come to their senses that "Hey, if we stop bombing the Americans and actually start helping they'll actually leave faster!"

It's late for me, so i hope I made sense. %)

Re: jihad over this? #90689 02/20/2006 9:52 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
Burak Offline
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
@Allen

I don't think that it's a good idea to put these on UBBDev since this site is neither political nor religious and it must stay like this IMO.

Western culture may make fun of some religius figures, but this may not be tolerated in other cultures and in generally, even drawing "the face" of the prophet is generally forbidden (there are some miniatures that shows him with a face though, but these are so few). Some believe that this is due to prevent believers from idolizing the prophet (i.e.: making icons of him) or prevent making him equal to the God in their minds. So, this may or may not be "haram" (I'm not an authority) but the general concept is followed mostly and only a figure representing him is used without a face in old miniatures. And making fun of a religion and a prophet is another bad idea... For example, Muslims do believe in Jesus (although in a little different way then the Christianity), but don't make fun of him or the prophets before him. I recently saw a video of some sort of "Jesus Christ" singing "I'll survive" and hit buy a bus at the end (which may be found somewhere on the net). You may just laugh at that, but if you do this with another prophet name, you may start a "real" war. So, you must show respect to other people's beliefs...

And you are right that the backlash is far more greater than any other similar events. Two sides are both responsible for that and I think that there are also some other hands in these events (don't just rely on only American press since they may be misleading). But, Danish government was so ignorant and some other countries also printed these caricatures after that protests begun and this is like putting more fuel to the fire. And there are also provacateurs on the other side. And I think that most protesters didn't even see the caricatures or saw few of them. I mostly agreee with Brett on this subject...

Re: jihad over this? #90690 02/20/2006 1:27 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
AllenAyres Offline OP
I type Like navaho
OP Offline
I type Like navaho
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
I understand the reasoning behind the reverance of their prophet, but why did they choose these cartoons to riot over and not the hundreds/ thousands of similar/worse depictions of their prophet over the years?

Why was their no uproar regarding the southpark episode from 3 or so years ago? Surely that would be considered more heinous a crime...

Here's a website who's chronicled the depictions of muhammad over the years:
http://www.zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/

Quote
quote:

Mohammed Image Archive


Depictions of Mohammed Throughout History


The Mohammed Image Archive is a compendium of images that depict Mohammed (the 7th-century founder of Islam), spanning all historical periods, cultures and genres.

The inspiration for this Archive came from the global controversy over the publication of Mohammed cartoons in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten, and the need for a comprehensive and even-handed look at the wide variety of Mohammed depictions in Islamic and Western societies from the Middle Ages until today. It will remain online as a resource for those interested in freedom of expression. (Please note that the Arabic name "Mohammed" has over the years been transliterated into Western languages with several different spellings -- some of which you'll encounter on this site -- including Mahomet, Muhammad, and Mohamed.)
What gives? Why the anger over the current cartoons (some shown to be faked by the Danish Imams themselves smash )?

As for the relevancy of the topic... the site is slooowww - what else are we gonna discuss that affects the worldwide audience members of the site? This topic touches every country represented here I think smile This forum is a small part of the site as a whole and we've discussed religious/ political topics before... I guess we could bash google, microsoft, yahoo, et al regarding their policies of convenience regarding china... wink


- Allen wavey
- What Drives You?
Re: jihad over this? #90691 02/21/2006 11:04 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
Burak Offline
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
Quote
Originally posted by AllenAyres:

I understand the reasoning behind the reverance of their prophet, but why did they choose these cartoons to riot over and not the hundreds/ thousands of similar/worse depictions of their prophet over the years?



because someone made these new "junk" popular for some reason.

quote:
[qb]Why was their no uproar regarding the southpark episode from 3 or so years ago? Surely that would be considered more heinous a crime...
[/qb]
I personally see South Park as a piece of and don't watch it. Animation is bad, characters are awful and the script is one of the worst I've ever seen (in my opinion). But I liked the star wars parody wallpapers with southpark images (back in 2001 or 2000) which are obviously created by someone else tipsy Shortly; I don't like it. Anyway, you can not protest something you don't know.

Quote
quote:

As for the relevancy of the topic... the site is slooowww - what else are we gonna discuss that affects the worldwide audience members of the site? This topic touches every country represented here I think
Ok. discuss it. Bu you can at least remove these images from this post, since I also believe in Islam (you can google my name for the meaning of it, in case you didn't do yet) and find these images insulting...

Sponsored Links
Re: jihad over this? #90692 02/25/2006 9:46 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
AllenAyres Offline OP
I type Like navaho
OP Offline
I type Like navaho
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
I'm sorry if they offend you (really, I am), but this topic is for a bigger purpose than whether or not they offend someone - people are dying around the world because of the absurdity/small mindedness of a few danish imams. Main Stream Media (MSM) in the US cowers in fear over these images, yet they have no problem insulting every other religion on earth. When freedom of speech is stifled in an effort to not offend, then what freedom is left?


- Allen wavey
- What Drives You?
Re: jihad over this? #90693 02/26/2006 10:58 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
Burak Offline
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
Well... I think that this is not freedom of speech and there is no such thing like "endless" freedom. Your freedom ends where mine begins and vice versa. And for the imams; today, they are nothing more than prayer leaders (I'm talking about Sunnis though). Their main function is to show/guide the correct way of praying to the congregation (if you have a misconception about the term). In Turkey, they are employees who are paid and controlled by a government organization (and no, Turkey is not ruled by Islamic terms --ie: it is secular --, this is not Iran or some other country in case you didn't know) and can not do such things.

You know, you can easily manipulate the misguided or uneducated (like the politicians do). Not related to this subject, but it came into my mind anyway; I remember Yusuf Islam (formerly Cat Stevens as you know) dressing like a bedouin (desert nomad) and he also came to Istanbul with these back in '94 if I remember correctly. Now he dresses normally as it should be. But some people are still reducing the religion to the level of old fashioned clothing. This is due to the misinterpretation of "Sunnah". There are some ghettos both in Europe and in anywhere on the world with poor people or people that are not adapted to the country/community they live in and some clever ones can use these people for their purposes using some bastardized thing as a religion (or something else). There is such an organization in Germany and Germany allowed these to develop until a few years ago. So, again there is an ignorance on the government level as these caricatures.

Re: jihad over this? #90694 02/27/2006 2:12 AM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
AllenAyres Offline OP
I type Like navaho
OP Offline
I type Like navaho
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
yes, there is (ignorance on government level as much as the charicatures) smile

What do you mean by

Quote
quote:
"there is no such thing like "endless" freedom. Your freedom ends where mine begins and vice versa."
?

In the US we have freedom of speech (with the exception being you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater or something similar) - someone can say what they please, and someone else can agree or disagree, but they both have the right to say it. Should someone say something that offends me, I can voice disagreement, but I can't burn his office down because I am offended.

When some cartoonist posts offensive drawings, it's just as much anyone's right to be offended and say so, as it is his right to draw them. Instead, 4 months later, with the help of danish imams who fake a few more images never meant to portray muhammed, freedom of speech runs into the roadblock of violent protests, killing, burning, and the threat of more of the same against those who had nothing to do with the drawings.

Yes, it is about freedom of speech - not so much mine in this context, since I have no direct connection to the drawings, but definitely the cartoonist's and the danish paper who published them. It's also everyone else's right to say what they think about them, good or bad - but that right doesn't include violence against innocent people who had nothing to do with them.


- Allen wavey
- What Drives You?
Re: jihad over this? #90695 02/27/2006 9:52 AM
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
Burak Offline
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,356
Quote
quote:
"there is no such thing like "endless" freedom. Your freedom ends where mine begins and vice versa."
"you" is not you and "mine" is no me. I'm talking about a general concept not you and me. If your freedom harms someone (either physically or mentally) then it is no longer freedom it is something else. At least I think like that.

Re: jihad over this? #90696 02/28/2006 7:18 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
AllenAyres Offline OP
I type Like navaho
OP Offline
I type Like navaho
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 21,079
I didn't think you meant personally, more generally.

Someone's freedom harming someone else "mentally" is very difficult to measure, validate, etc. tho. It would be impossible to say anything then that *someone* wouldn't find offensive at least in some part.

Related:

Quote
quote:

"Enraged Orange County Christians poured into the streets after morning services today, torching cars and burning effigies of Walt Disney, following the publication by the Orange County Weekly of an offensive Christianophobic article: Jesus Kills. "
Ok, not really tipsy They'd be more likely to riot over a doughnut shortage at my church, but we get the point - it would be unbelievable to think some groups would violently riot over offensive writing, yet we're to *expect* it from other groups. Hundreds have died in the riots and protests over the cartoons since January (with promises of more).


- Allen wavey
- What Drives You?
Sponsored Links

Donate Today!
Donate via PayPal

Donate to UBBDev today to help aid in Operational, Server and Script Maintenance, and Development costs.

Please also see our parent organization VNC Web Services if you're in the need of a new UBB.threads Install or Upgrade, Site/Server Migrations, or Security and Coding Services.
Recommended Hosts
We have personally worked with and recommend the following Web Hosts:
Stable Host
bluehost
InterServer
Visit us on Facebook
Member Spotlight
Nettomo
Nettomo
Germany, Bremen
Posts: 417
Joined: November 2001
Forum Statistics
Forums63
Topics37,490
Posts293,665
Members13,828
Most Online5,166
Sep 15th, 2019
Top Posters(All Time)
AllenAyres 21,079
JoshPet 10,369
LK 7,394
Lord Dexter 6,708
Gizmo 5,786
Greg Hard 4,625
Top Posters(30 Days)
isaac 4
Today's Statistics
Currently Online 1426
Topics Created 0
Posts Made 0
Users Online 0
Birthdays 21
The UBB.Developers Network (UBB.Dev/Threads.Dev) is ©2000-2019 VNC Web Services

 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4
(Snapshot build 20191013.dev)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.045s Queries: 14 (0.013s) Memory: 3.2791 MB (Peak: 3.4679 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2019-10-21 15:17:18 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS