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Ohton #304912 04/02/2003 4:46 AM
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I think it's strange that so many people point their fingers at the president for everything that happens. If the rest of the government, and the bulk of the people of the US, had been strongly opposed to the war, it would never have happened.

At this point though, seeing how the Iraqi government treat their own people, I think the war makes sense. And the more that I listen to the briefings from the US defense department and senior military officers, the more impressed I've become by their competence in planning and conducting the operation. I have no complaints.

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[]shortbus said:
that's fine as long as it resembles fact in some way. [/]

Who gets to deside what is and is not fact?...

"Having the right to vote isn't important. Having the right to count the votes is." Joseph Stalin.

palmen #304914 04/02/2003 7:15 AM
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[] Ok.. so you can show one bad picture.. then here is one to show the positive side of things, how the Iraqi children welcome the troops and are thankful for their help...
[/]

i can show u hundreds of bad iraq war pictures...

your picture shows British Royal Marines.......and kids happy for food after 12 years embargo.....anyhow...i missing some us-flags

Ohton #304915 04/02/2003 10:04 AM
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I'm just saying, for the hundreds of bad photos, you can also find hundreds of good photos as well. And are you saying the ROyal Marines haven't killed anyone in iraq or accidently hurt a civillian?

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hundred of good ore hundred of bad photos.....doesn't matter......important are the true photos!!!

and royal marines ore us marines......in this dirty war for me are both the same : MURDER!

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Ohton #304917 04/02/2003 3:25 PM
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that child was likely injured by IRAQI government.

How dumb are you to blame one injured child on the U.S. when we are doing every single thing we can to avoid casualties even at the cost of our own soldiers, while the IRAQI's use women and children as human shields.

Yeah, the terrible, awful United States.

They must be horrible, I mean, look how their own people live.......Oh wait, that's not right!

Those people will be better off and it will be worth the innocent civilians lives that are lost because it will end the loss of innocent lives by Saddam that GREATLY exceeds that of this war......

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[]that child was likely injured by IRAQI government.[/]
here more about this child.....

on monday, 5 children (less then 5 years) was killed by us troops near Nadschaf.......

[]http://www.stern.de/_content/50/06/500605/baby135.jpg[/]

Ohton #304919 04/02/2003 8:15 PM
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[] after local soldiers appeared to force civilians towards U.S. marines positions [/]

I GUESS YOU MISSED THIS PART?


Ohton #304920 04/02/2003 8:15 PM
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post the story behind the image:

[]
A wounded Iraqi girl is treated by U.S. marines in central Iraq March 29, 2003. Confused front line crossfire ripped apart an Iraqi family on Saturday after local soldiers appeared to force civilians towards U.S. marines positions. The four-year old girl, blood streaming from an eye wound, was screaming for her dead mother, while her father, shot in a leg, begged to be freed from the plastic wrist cuffs slapped on him by U.S. marines, so he could hug his other terrified daughter. (AP)
[/]

The b*)&^*&(^ iraqi militia pushed this family into the middle of the gunfight between coalition forces and iraqi militia. No where does it say the family was shot by coalition forces, it does say the Marines treated the girl... iraqi militia would have just as soon see her die.

Please use at least a little judgement in your posts


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i don't miss this part.....i don't trust us newspapers, because 95% made by us propaganda.....better u use the web and read the whole story from other newspapers!
"I saw the heads of my two little g...ily pregnant wife, Lamea, 36, said .....

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judgement? what the hell is judgement?

[]http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1048653885780_2003/03/29/gal10_brother,0.jpg[/]

An Iraqi boy sits near the body of his brother lying in a casket prior to his funeral after the US-led bombing. Photo: AFP





Ohton #304923 04/03/2003 2:01 PM
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uh, yeah, U.S. propaganda....riiiiiiiiiiiight.

Would that be like the Iraqi minister of defense claiming that the U.S. hasn't even crossed the Tigris river yet when they are actually 20 some miles from Baghdad?

I can't wait til his next speech when he says the same thing and then windows and doors bust in and Army Rangers or some other special ops team makes a live tv appearance.

I don't doubt that there are civilians dieing, but most of them are dieing becuase the Iraqi regime doesn't care about them. Instead of making sure they are out of harms way, they are intentionally putting them IN harms way.

What part about human shields, soldiers hiding in mosques, and in ancient sacred buildings and shooting at us soldiers, using hospitals, nad red cross vehicles to carry out war, wearing us and uk uniforms or dressing up as civilians, surrendering and then shooting at the soldiers, paying the families of suicide bombers, etc., DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

Guess you also didn't see that torture chamber that they showed on tv yesterday. Guess you haven't seen the Iraqis celebrating the U.S. soldiers.

You WANT to hate the united states, regardless of where you are from. That is all there is to it. You WILL NOT listen to reason, so there is no point in even continueing this discussion is there.

Let me know when you can look at fact, make educated observations, and form an unbiased and informed opinion. Then we'll talk.

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i see..........

"Someday I will provide some useful nformation to this forum. That day......Is not today."

in one thing u are 100% right......

"That day......Is not today."

--------------------

~~~~~~[censored] taste good...100.000 flies don't err~~~~~~

Ohton #304925 04/03/2003 7:31 PM
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very nice one Patt, I'll give you credit for that, but as far as a reply based on the subject, you are failing miserably.

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ok....about failing miserably......
reading is easy for me....but writing in english gives me some problems.....please use for my answer some online translation:

"Would that be like the Iraqi minister of defense claiming that the U.S. hasn't even crossed the Tigris river yet when they are actually 20 some miles from Baghdad?
I can't wait til his next speech when he says the same thing and then windows and doors bust in and Army Rangers or some other special ops team makes a live tv appearance."

logischerweise lügen wohl beide seiten was die berichterstattung angeht, "die medien als mittel zum zweck", deswegen sollte man auch immer alle nachrichten von verschiedenen zeitungen und tv-stationen und am besten keine arabischen oder amerikanischen nehmen oder diesen vorbehaltlos vertrauen oder glauben!
es steht wohl ausser frage das diese berichtserstattungen zu 50% aus märchen bestehen und dadurch nur die leute für dumm verkauft werden.....wer diese lügenmärchen (auf beide seiten) glaubt ist wohl selbst daran schuld.


"I don't doubt that there are civilians dieing, but most of them are dieing becuase the Iraqi regime doesn't care about them. Instead of making sure they are out of harms way, they are intentionally putting them IN harms way."

zivilisten sterben im irak zur zeit in erster linie nur durch us/britische waffen, ohne diesen total unnötigen angriffskrieg könnten hunderte von menschen noch am leben sein!

"What part about human shields, soldiers hiding in mosques, and in ancient sacred buildings and shooting at us soldiers, using hospitals, nad red cross vehicles to carry out war, wearing us and uk uniforms or dressing up as civilians, surrendering and then shooting at the soldiers, paying the families of suicide bombers, etc., DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?"

krieg ist und bleibt schmutzig, wer aber hat diesen krieg in den irak gebracht? was haben die "befreier" gedacht? dass sie mit kleinen fähnchen schwenkenden einwohnern als befreier gefeiert werden? was für eine wahl hat dieser diktator jetzt noch? es ist doch logisch dass ihm jetzt jedes mittel recht ist diesen krieg zu führen, daran hätte george bush vorher denken können; sich blind und arrogant nur auf seine ratgeber zu verlassen und alle anderen warnenden stimmen zu ignorieren ist schon mehr als nur idiotisch.
und weil wir gerade von menschlichen schutzschildern sprachen....auf dem weg nach amman wurden 2 busse mit diesen von us tieffliegern mit bordwaffen beschossen....was für ein dreckiger krieg!

"Guess you also didn't see that torture chamber that they showed on tv yesterday. Guess you haven't seen the Iraqis celebrating the U.S. soldiers."

folterstühle und sonstiges habe ich bisher massenhaft gesehen, was mich aber am meisten ankotzt sind diese toten kinder....
logischerweise bringen us medien befreierfeiernde irakis...sollen sie weinende mütter zeigen um den patriotismus zu stärken?
wo war die humanitäre hilfe in den letzten 12 jahren?
zehntausende von kinder starben in dieser zeit auf grund des verhängten embargos.

"You WANT to hate the united states, regardless of where you are from. That is all there is to it."


ich hasse amerika nicht, ich hasse verbrecher und ihresgleichen...egal ob sie saddam, tony oder george heissen......für mich ist ein solcher krieg mord und alle beteiligten daran sind meines erachtens verbrecher, vor allem wenn solches aus reiner gewinnsucht betrieben wird!

"You WILL NOT listen to reason, so there is no point in even continueing this discussion is there."

im gegensatz zu manch anderen leuten laufe ich bestimmt nicht mit scheuklappen durch die gegend und vertraue blind auf irgendwelche probagandamedien! ich kann immer nur eines betonen: traue nie nur einer seite, schaue dir alle seiten an und mache dir vor allem gedanken!

so, ich denke das war wohl das wichtigste....
kann jetzt nur hoffen das babelfish mein geschreibe einigermassen übersetzen kann *gg

Ohton #304927 04/03/2003 10:12 PM
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babelfish fails miserably in most regards to comprehensible translation

WHAT WE NOW KNOW: We're an amnesiac short-attention span culture. Only three weeks ago, we were in the middle of a debate about war; now we're in the middle of the war. In the frenetic news cycles, we scarcely find time to relate what we now know to what we once argued. But we need to make time.

Here's a short list of what we know now about Saddam, two weeks after the outbreak of war: that he runs a more horrifying police-state than some of us imagined; that he uses terroristic measures to maintain his rule; has close contact with other terrorist groups whom he has invited into his country in his defense; invokes Islamic justifications for his despotism far more often than any secular justifications; is capable of actions very few other human beings are capable of; and will not give up an ounce of real power even at the point of an actually loaded gun.

In other words, the prudential justification for the war is now far stronger than it was only a couple of weeks ago: no one can plausibly now argue that this monstrous regime would have voluntarily disarmed itself at the polite and constantly negotiable behest of a mild-mannered Swede. Inspections would never have worked, if by "worked," we actually mean succeeded in disarming Saddam. But more importantly, the moral justification for war has been deepened. More Americans today can absorb the true horror of murderous totalitarian rule, by watching its hatchet men defend themselves by all means necessary - using women and childern as shields, murdering POWs, deploying suicide bombers, and the like. Ending that kind of evil anywhere any time is always a good thing. You can argue the costs but you can't argue the moral good of it. We will save many lives; we are rescuing many people who are oppressed in ways those who constantly talk about "oppression" do not really know or understand. These are good things to know. They are vital things to remember.


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"Hundreds of American troops marched into town at midday today and were greeted by its residents. The infantry was backed by attack helicopters and bombers, and immediately destroyed several arms caches and took over a military training facility to serve as their headquarters. The occupying forces, from the First and Second brigades of the 101st Airborne Division, entered from the south and north. They had seized the perimeter of town on Tuesday. People rushed to greet them today, crying out repeatedly, 'Thank you, this is beautiful!'

Two questions dominated a crowd that gathered outside a former ammunition center for the Baath Party. 'Will you stay?' asked Kase, a civil engineer who would not give his last name. Another man, Heider, said, 'Can you tell me what time Saddam is finished?'" - New York Times, April 2, reporting on the first city to have been fully liberated from Saddam's thugs.


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[]http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,252742,00.jpg[/] []http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,252724,00.jpg[/] []http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,252726,00.jpg[/]

Ohton #304932 04/06/2003 7:18 PM
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[]patt said:
"Someday I will provide some useful nformation to this forum. That day......Is not today."

in one thing u are 100% right......

"That day......Is not today."[/]

I agree with a lot of what you've said patt. I think this 'war' is absolutely wrong and I do not support it. I've always kept up quite well with government and politics, so I make my decision based on my own knowledge. But I think we should try to not attack people for the way they feel (and it seemed to me like that was what you did in the above quote.) We know they are wrong, don't we? If we attack each other or make fun of something the other has said, it just makes it look like we don't really have anything to back up our position. I don't think that's the case, and I think your position will be more credible if you refrain from jabs like that and stick with the real issues.


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[]shortbus said:
You WANT to hate the united states, regardless of where you are from. That is all there is to it. You WILL NOT listen to reason, so there is no point in even continueing this discussion is there.[/]

I certainly don't WANT to hate the US, and I don't think that believing this war is illegal, morally wrong, and against everything I believe this country is really about, makes me "hate" the US. Please realize that just because we don't agree with your version of the 'facts' doesn't mean we aren't reasonable. It's just as easy for me to believe that it is YOU who won't see reason, but that obviously doesn't make it so.


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JacquiL #304934 04/06/2003 11:30 PM
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OK, point taken

How would you deal with Saddam Hussein (self-avowed Stalinist running a brutal police-state) then?

- Would you continue to allow him to murder, maim, and mutilate his own people... letting thousands die of starvation and disease while he adds yet another palace to the 8 he already has?
- Would you continue to allow the rape of women in front of their husbands in order to extract information?
- Would you continue to allow the gouging of eyes of prisoners?
- Would you continue to allow him to build the very same weapons he had agreed to destroy as terms of his 1992 surrender?
- Would you continue to allow this 21st century Hitler the freedom to murder the Kurds simply because they aren't Arab?
- I'll have a few more followups when those are answered

[]https://www.ubbdev.com/threads/php/uploads/panels/9340-1899.png[/]


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JacquiL #304935 04/07/2003 6:54 AM
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absolutely right lisa *g

Ohton #304936 04/07/2003 11:38 AM
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You have no idea either patt?

Again, it's much easier to take a back-seat driver's position and say 'we shouldn't do that', than actually have input into what should actually be done.

Do we need to repeat the atrocities of Stalin, Kosovo, Rwanda, etc. because it's 'none of our business'?


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no idea?

nochmals eine kleine zusammenfassung:

dieser dreckige krieg war total unnötig, jedes opfer geht zu lasten der us/british koalition.
bush und blair werden als kriegstreiber in die geschichte eingehen!
die entwaffnung wäre auch ohne jegliche kriegshandlungen machbar gewesen.
ich kann nur hoffen das der rest der amerikanischen bevölkerung, die nicht dem falschen fox/cnn patriotismus verfallen ist, die alten werte der usa aufrecht erhalten!
ich will auch nicht über saddams horrortaten debattieren, diese sind wohl jedem bekannt, mir kommt es vor als würden diese aber immer nur in erinnerung gebracht werden als schutzbehauptungen für diesen miesen krieg!

WO RECHT ZU UNRECHT WIRD - WIRD WIDERSTAND ZUR PFLICHT!

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Bablefish translation:
[]again a small summary: this dirty war was totally unnecessary, each victim goes debited to us/british the coalition bush and blair as war driver history will enter! the disarmament would have been feasible also without any war actions I can only hope that the remainder of the American population, who did not purge to the wrong fox/cnn patriotismus, those old worth of the USA to keep upright! I want also not over saddams horror-did to debate, these am probably everyone well-known, me occur it as these however in each case in memory would be brought as protection statements for this bad war! WHERE RIGHT TO INJUSTICE BECOMES - RESISTANCE BECOMES THE OBLIGATION! [/]

>> Totally Unnecessary
Totally Unnecessary? Should we wait for him to use the chemical weapons on us, you or others before we take action?

The latest is that they most likely have found the chemicals... in barrels, burried in a bunker, hidden by leaves etc...
An Iraqi military officer took the coalition to them.
Pesticides? Why do you hide pesticides? Most likely not.

And the latest, they most likely have gotten Sadam and his sons this evening. Let's hope. Then it'll just be a matter of time before it's over.

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[]How would you deal with Saddam Hussein[/]

Seriously? If I were someone who was high enough in politics, such as the president, someone high-enough up in the CIA, whatever, I'd have just had him killed. I'm not joking - if we know he's as horrible as the government wants to shove down our throats, why not just send in some type of special op assassins, or hire them from another country, and have him killed? I despise the double-talk I hear from our government. I listen to and watch press conferences where one day Rumsfeld says our sole objective is to remove Saddam from power - remove his regime. Then the next day, when asked the day to day question as to whether or not Saddam is still alive, he answers, "It doesn't matter. If we had proof that Saddam was dead, it wouldn't change our military action whatsoever." (That's not a direct quote, that's paraphrased from memory.) If our military plan of action is NOT dependant upon whether or not Saddam is alive or dead, how could the entire mission be summed up as removing Saddam from power?

I'm against our government saying that if Saddam or any of his high-ranking political officials wanted to surrender, we would refuse to give them safe passage out of the country. We asked for Saddam to exile himself, but he refused, so now we'll accept nothing short of capturing him and bringing him to the US, or killing him. I think that's an incredibly stupid decision if we are truly concerned for the people of Iraq and our soldiers. I'm sorry, but if you back someone into a corner and give them NO acceptable way out, they will retaliate as viciously as possible. If we back him into a corner, with no way out except being dragged back to the US or being killed, why the heck wouldn't he use every weapon available?

If our concern was truly protecting the people of Iraq, I think there are other ways we could have 'rescued' the people without a war. I believe if we'd proposed a plan to the UN for rescuing the people, it would have been met with much more acceptance. We could have gone in with trucks and offered to relocate to another country any family who wanted to leave Iraq. There may have been bloodshed over it, but certainly not as much as we've had to this point. It would have been expensive, but certainly not as expensive as this war is. Maybe the people wouldn't have wanted to leave their country? If they were truly suffering or as terrorized as we're led to believe, they'd have been happy to leave. Sure, it's their home, their country, but we're destroying lots of those homes and country now anyway. If we removed everyone from Iraq who didn't want to live under Saddam, who'd be left? The ones who really want to live under Saddam!

But, to answer your questions:

- Would you continue to allow him to murder, maim, and mutilate his own people... letting thousands die of starvation and disease while he adds yet another palace to the 8 he already has? Nope, I'd take them all out and move them someplace else.

- Would you continue to allow the rape of women in front of their husbands in order to extract information? Nope, I'd take them all out and move them someplace else.

- Would you continue to allow the gouging of eyes of prisoners? ?? I guess that depends. Not until after we've removed everyone who doesn't want to stay. That includes the prisoners. There are prisons in most (every??) country - we can move prisoners just as easily as wives and children. As for the prisoners who are imprisoned after our removal of everyone - I guess I'm not as concerned with them. I mean, if I move to (or willingly stay in) a country where I know that is a punishment I could be subjected to, why should another country come in and say otherwise? Plenty of countries don't believe in capital punishment, but that doesn't stop Texas from executing prisoners one after another, does it?

Make sure you understand that I'm not saying anyone who lives in Iraq knows what they are up against, and if they live there that's there fault. I know for most of them they don't have the funds, connections, ability, etc., to relocate to another country. I'm saying after we relocated everyone who wanted to leave the country, anyone who chose to stay would have to understand that this is their one chance - take it or leave it.

- Would you continue to allow him to build the very same weapons he had agreed to destroy as terms of his 1992 surrender? totally different topic (not one I don't have an answer for , but it really is separate from the humanitarian aspects most of this post has dealt with)

- Would you continue to allow this 21st century Hitler the freedom to murder the Kurds simply because they aren't Arab? Nope, I'd relocate them.

And you can't say 'relocating them is way too simplistic a plan', because personally, I think picking up a gun and shooting your way through the country is even more simplistic. Even I have, and can fire, a gun.

Side note: If anyone here doesn't think they can separate a debate of these issues without ending up with hard feelings, please let me know! I have no problem with not answering in this thread if what I say will bother someone. I enjoy this board and the help I get here. I'd have no problem zipping my mouth to avoid offending anyone here.


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Ah healthy discussion is good.

I sort of agree that the stopping of "executive executions" has really hurt us. I think I know why they stopped that, but taking out Osama and Sadam a long time ago, mysteriously in the middle of the night by some secret special forces would have sure made like alot easier than playing "fair" with war. :/

Hopefully it's almost over soon.

I just saw the guy in Washington interviewed... he's the US-Iraq Business Relations (or something like that). He said he was so happy. He said although he's lived "free" in the US for many years, his family has not been free... and he has still been fearful. He said he was happy Sadam was no longer in control.

If you "work for" Iraq... you don't say that on Television unless you are convinced that he's gone and not coming back.

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Anyone seeing the Iraqis celebrating?

I wonder why they're doing that?

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Seeing that statue come down the other day... and people hitting it with their shoe was great.

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[]shortbus said:
Anyone seeing the Iraqis celebrating?

I wonder why they're doing that? [/]

Celebrating, rioting, looting -- lots of big public displays going on in Baghdad right now, not all of them good. Any time you get a large group of people together in a high-tension environment there's going to be a certain amount of "over the top" behaviour, so I don't think we can assume they're *all* just in it for the celebration. People in this country act like that on New Years Eve.

My concern -- the US is taking out a moderate (albeit crazy) Middle Eastern government and is going to replace it with a government backed by the Shi'ites or other, less moderate Islamic regime. Then we won't have prisoners being tortured for no good reason, but we will have thieves getting their hands chopped off for stealing, and women being stoned for adultery. The US didn't care one bit about how women were treated in Afghanistan until the Taliban suddenly blew up some buildings on American soil. Personally, I'm afraid that in the long run, large groups of Iraqis (Sunis, Christians, etc.) are going to be treated much worse than they ever were under Saddam.

My two cents, from a dual-citizenship perspective.

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more than 2 cents......much more....

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Just removing Saddam doesn't remove his grip on the people there... the top leaders in the country are as crazy as he is (have you listened to the 'minister of information'?). Saddam isn't the one pulling the trigger, he has many homicidal thugs doing it for him. I would imagine when Rumsfeld says our mission is to remove Saddam, our mission is to remove Saddam's influence, including his henchmen/sons/etc. Allowing them to 'promise to go away and not be bad people' anymore is to ignore the tragedy of Saddam's reign of terror since 1978, still, they were given that opportunity on many occasions and declined.

Just removing the millions of people from Iraq who are subject to his violence is just a little short-sighted, don't you think? What about their rights as citizens of the country to live there? Yes, 'shooting your way through' iraq may seem simplistic, but I challenge you to find any war between 2 countries where the number of civilians killed was less than the number of civilians killed by the iraqi govt. in the previous year. >50,000 citizens just disappear on a yearly basis there... they were 'relocated' to the afterlife.

You remember the guy who tried to force his way into a UN inspector's vehicle? He's gone.
Here's an example of more 'relocations':
[]
Amnesty International has on numerous occasions over the years expressed its concern at the practice of "disappearances" by the Iraqi authorities. Cases have been documented in several reports [2]. The organization has obtained and continues to receive the names of thousands of victims whose fate and whereabouts remain unknown. As an example, according to some estimates over 100,000 Kurdish civilians "disappeared" in 1988 alone, in a space of three to four months, in the so-called Operation Anfal when the Iraqi Government implemented a program of destruction of villages and towns all over Iraqi Kurdistan, ostensibly in order to resettle the inhabitants in areas which offered improved conditions. An estimated 4,000 villages and towns were destroyed and razed to the ground and decrees were issued giving military and security personnel the authority to execute any persons attempting to return to their homes. Some Kurdish estimates put the figure at 150,000 to 180,000 "disappeared" victims. Amnesty International has the names of about 17,000 people who "disappeared" during that time.
[/]

There's quite a bit more in that article, they list hundreds of thousands of people 'relocated' over the last 20 years...


- Allen wavey
- What Drives You?
navdan #304947 04/20/2003 7:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 80
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 80
I'm behind the president on this. Andy Rooney, a liberal democrat, had the decency to admit he was wrong and the President was right. I thought that was big of him. I thought once we saw the oppressed liberated and not living in fear the world would change its mind. I think it is too, but there is still great opposition.

I hope we dont have to go to war with Syria, but I like the current adminstration and trust their judgement.


Promoting the world on bike!
Revlis #304948 04/21/2003 2:00 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
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Saddam Proud He Still Killed More Iraqi Civilians Than U.S.

BAGHDAD, IRAQ--Reflecting on his time as Iraq's president in a pre-taped television address, Saddam Hussein expressed pride Tuesday that, despite the success of the U.S. invasion and the civilian casualties it has inflicted, he still has killed far more Iraqis than President Bush.


- Allen wavey
- What Drives You?
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