Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Consorting with the enemy #212451 10/13/2001 1:28 PM
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 242
sixpack69 Offline OP
Coder
OP Offline
Coder
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 242
Since W3T started, the enemy has been UBB. Of course, some would disagree - in my mind this is the case. Many conversion scripts have been written to bring the UBB folks into W3T for good reason, and these reasons aren't any less valid than they were when we started this stuff. In my mind, UBB and VB and similar boards are what we look to to keep up with features and such, it's irrelevant to me who has been doing what for longest. The point is, UBB is the enemy and many users are under protest for "selling out".

The fact that Perl isn't supported anymore (which irked me at first but agree with it in the end, by the way), the name change (a real unwise, snap decision that I hope is reconsidered... about changing the name of the software *thwap*) and the fact that "we" are going to become a part of those we were trying to defeat for years (also in my view). These are probably the most important points all this anger is stemming from.

With the point above in mind, it's easy for these pro-UBB people to say that many are afraid of change - just look at the crap that got stirred up when Scream redid the password features, forcing everyone to have to log back in upon upgrade (there are other instances of changes starting crud too, this is just one of them). This was a change that everyone disliked. An example of a change that I believe most users liked were the CSS features. No longer would options have to be edited here and there in one or two files, sometimes buried in different directories or named differently in the same folder, the admins could make all (well, most...) of their major stylistic changes via these .css files. That was an ultra-nice way of simplizing things for admins, and most I talked to loved this.

Another example of change being widely accepted was the addition of php (which wasn't that long ago, btw... []/testimages/icons/frown.gif[/]). Another was addressbooks... another was the who's online... I could go on and on listing examples of changes that were widely accepted.

Saying the users who are rejecting this little merger or buyout, pick your definition, on the basis that they "hate change" is not only inaccurate, it's skirting the real issue:

W3T has been a large alternative of UBB, for multiple reasons (not all of them dealing with the software itself), and actually selling your software to the ones we've had it as a main focus to compete against was... a decision, definitely a decision (I'll leave it at that).

While I don't put myself in the same boat as those who oppose this decision, I want to make it real clear why some of you are earning this flack. Don't kid yourselves about the reasons for this little uprising, and don't forget that many users have spent a lot of their time in helping out developing this software, through ideas, hacks, documentation, sales (referrals), and many other reasons I'm forgetting. You keep this stuff to heart and make yourselves stop for just a moment and really think about what it is that you're doing - If you're not actually willing to do this, then you're not serious about keeping the community intact (this name change is a perfect example... the users are talking, you going to listen? Listen).

Now, with that said, Infopop is not microsoft. They are not a "big" corporation out there to squash the little guy - it was just as much Rick's decision to sell his software as it was for "those corporate" folks to buy it (besides, what are they... 5 .... 10 people?). Don't kid yourselves, this company could fold as quickly tomorrow as a mom or pop company. In my mind, they are still vulnerable to a lot of the same things Rick was when developing W3T, and they need help just as badly (if not more help in certain areas... []/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/]). It's not apparent, being an independent, that one could ever "go bankrupt" or have to sell because of lack of incoming funds. Time is very much a commodity and as Rick has implied in one way or another, he wasn't getting the income he needed to justify the time in keeping W3T heading in the direction it should be going, and at the speed at which it should be getting there. We all have to eat, we all have lives. To make enough money to actually be able to focus on W3T and propell it up there with some of microsoft's products in regards to popularity and revenue, that requires mucho time (sometimes time away from friends and family, which is very important to the human psyche - enough psycho babble though...). He's excited about this merger, possibly more than most of us, so I'm willing to give it a chance, for better or for worse.

I'm not good at bull, I have no patience for it and I'm not good at it when I try (probably why I like writing documentation). If you're pissed at UBB or just plain don't like them, there's no reason for me to convince you W3T won't turn into the same sort of product, because the truth is nobody will know unless it happens that way.

Personally, I believe with Scream at the helm that things will only improve.

As for the rest of you, in all reality none of this is a big deal. You have the present W3T revision with all the latest features to keep your boards moving. If you can't or won't be upgrading to the future php-only versions of the software, then I hope you still won't stop visiting and offering input to various matters, because it's helped me as much as I've tried to help others - note the I hope... for me, not a "company". Also, from a note on php, down the road if some of you become open to the idea of taking a peek at how easy or not easy php is, like I have, you'll probably discover that it's not so much of a roadblock as you think it is, and hopefully the present users will stick around to help you out through the upgrading process, for you, not the company.

In all reality you're not going to be losing much, in some cases any; just stick around and check out the changes. If you don't like the changes, well... you tried.

(You infopop folks stay off this thread, if you would. I wrote this for me, not to pimp you)

Sponsored Links
Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: vmcknight] #212452 10/13/2001 2:48 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 8
ankh Offline
User
Offline
User
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 8
The best argument that can be made for maintaining a perl version, from a business perspective, is that it increases the size of the market. If the poll that was posted here a few months ago about which version is used can be believed, the market size is doubled by maintaining a perl version! PHP being faster is a good reason to have a php version, but a bad reason to drop perl, considering the market loss.

Re: Why would anyone use Perl? by Scream

Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: zkent] #212453 10/13/2001 3:21 PM
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 242
sixpack69 Offline OP
Coder
OP Offline
Coder
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 242
Yeah, I agree that both should be kept.

Assuming the decision had to be one or the other, the php is the more logical choice, on many fronts. The post you linked is interesting, though. []/testimages/icons/smile.gif[/]


Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: zkent] #212454 10/13/2001 3:33 PM
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 3,039
Rick Offline
Guru
Offline
Guru
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 3,039
What it really evolves down to is how can we put out the best product available. In other words, how can we keep up with everyone else. All of the other competitors have one version they work on. This has allowed some of the new ones to catch up very quickly.

It's true that I originally had no intentions of dropping the PERL version but I don't want this to lag behind other products and there is no way I can keep up doing both. We could throw more developers at it, but the one thing most everyone likes is the clean code and multiple developers working on a product usually doesn't make for clean code. Trust me, I work on a project like this in my day job and adding new things to it is anything but fun.

I thought by creating the PHP vesion along with the PERL version that I would get more customers and the community would grow. Didn't work that way. The same number of people bought but as before and it it basically split the community. Instead of everyone being able to focus on one, tracking bugs, features, etc. we had half on one side and half on the other.


UBB.threads Developer
Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: vmcknight] #212455 10/13/2001 3:42 PM
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 46
Derek Offline
Power User
Offline
Power User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 46
I think that, in addition to the reasons you mentioned, there is an additional issue at play here. I think there is a certain sense of feeling discarded. With all due respect to Scream, I think that W3T was a collaborative effort. When I think of W3T, I don't just think "Scream," I think Eileen, sixpack69, dannylin, Gerrit, MTO, Muhammad, WolfUK, poil, caymuc, mario2, Brewskie, and many of the other folks (and there are many more whose names should be here) who have contributed their time and energy to the development of W3T.

Unfortunately, although all these folks' opinions were good enough when it came to suggesting fixes, rooting out bugs, contributing hacks, etc., and making the program better, their opinions were NOT good enough when it came to making a decision on the sale of W3T. Yes, people say that W3T is Scream's program to do with as he pleases. That may be correct, as far as it goes. From my perspective though, W3T belonged to everyone who contributed to it.

Yes, Scream probably got paid very little compared to the time he devoted to the program, and yes I thank Scream for his efforts. Let's not forget, however, all the individuals like yourself, who probably received a complementary license or two in exchange for hours and hours of unpaid time. The truth is that, without the W3T community and its contribution, W3T would be nowhere near where it is now and would not have been attractive to any purchaser.

This is neither here nor there, I'm just trying to add some additional light to the feelings you expressed.

Sponsored Links
Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: Sally] #212456 10/13/2001 4:03 PM
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 46
Derek Offline
Power User
Offline
Power User
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 46
Scream,

First of all, thank you for all the work you have put into this product over the years. You are one of the reasons it has been so successful (the community behind it is the other).

As relates to the PERL question and several of the other questions, I think one of the main problems people in the PERL camp have, is not so much the fact that PERL will no longer be developed, I think everyone realizes that things change. I think the major difficulty is in the manner in which you have handled the change-over process.

From my Monday morning quarterbacking vantage point, I think a much better way of handling things would have been to let people, that depend on the PERL version, know that change is on the way and that they should begin to consider moving to PHP, since many of the features you want to implement are extremely difficult in PERL. This would have given people the opportunity to make a choice, rather than have a choice thrust upon them overnight. I guarantee that, as of Monday night, October 10, 2001, many of the folks using PERL, were still confident that your committment to PERL (as voiced about 4 months ago) was unwavering. To be dropped in the manner that they were, with no prior warning, is sure to be upsetting.

Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: ComMaster] #212457 10/13/2001 4:17 PM
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 13
nemesis23 Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Dec 1999
Posts: 13
In reply to:

I think the major difficulty is in the manner in which you have handled the change-over process ... To be dropped in the manner that they were, with no prior warning, is sure to be upsetting.



Exactly. It's bad enough that the PERL version is being dropped, but we should have been given warning. Jeez, at the very least, Scream, you should have told us yourself, right off the bat. Instead, Ted mentions it casually in a post made some time after the initial announcement. That's not a great way to convince the customers you've had for years that you and Infopop are working in our best interest and care about us.

There was a time (oh, say, about 3 days ago) when I would have been CERTAIN that if you were thinking about supporting only one version, you would have brought it up in the community in advance. I would have bet money that you'd not only WARN us, but ask our opinions on it. Not because you HAVE to -- you most certainly do not. But because that's just the way I thought you operated.

It's no fun to be proven wrong so effectively.



==================

Jamie Marie
BuffyGuide.com
Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: ComMaster] #212458 10/13/2001 4:18 PM
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 3,039
Rick Offline
Guru
Offline
Guru
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 3,039
Derek,

Your point is well taken. And yeah, I may have handled this whole thing wrong. I'm by no means a business man, just a guy who likes to program that decided to try and spin this thing into a part time business. I was totally unsure of how to approach the news about the PERL version so Ted offered to be the bearer of bad news in the FAQ.

Since announcing all of this I've been spending all of my time trying to reassure everyone and wondering if I did give out the news properly. I definitely didn't want anyone to feel like I was just abandoning them as I do have good intentions in this.

I've always had questions in why I didn't turn this thing into a full time job. And this is the reason. I really don't care for the business side of things. It's definitely not my strong point. Put me in front of a computer so I can code and that is where I'm at my best. Put me in a boardroom where I have to make the business decisions on a day to day basis and that is where I come up short. I'm not saying that I made the wrong decision in selling because this gets me back to where I should be...a programmer[]/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/].


UBB.threads Developer
Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: Sally] #212459 10/13/2001 11:06 PM
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 242
sixpack69 Offline OP
Coder
OP Offline
Coder
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 242
In reply to:

Your point is well taken. And yeah, I may have handled this whole thing wrong.




Well, I don't know if there was a "right" way to handle it - right being making very many (or very few even) people happy. I first heard about this thing from "them", so I'm still on the rebound as to how I feel about it. []/testimages/icons/laugh.gif[/] The rug's been pulled out from under me and I'm still not sure whether or not I like the hard floor underneath (what a bad analogy). I was offended the guys even implied like they were taking over your product (when in fact they were), so I had a bad attitude from the get-go. One of them at one point even said something to the effect of 'it's happening with or without you' sort of attitude (I don't recall now what I was asked about, I'll have to dig it out of the trash... []/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/]), and this got me further on the defensive.

For now I'm taking the basic dog psychology:

"I still don't like you guys, but he trusts you... "

*lifts leg and pees on Infopop in approval*


Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: vmcknight] #212460 10/15/2001 2:22 PM
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,715
Gardener Offline
Addict
Offline
Addict
Joined: May 1999
Posts: 1,715
While I'm not as sure that both versions should be kept since it's really a big job keeping two versions up to date I'd still would want the Perl version to be the one to continue on.

Even though I have good knowledge in PHP (I'm helping the translation of the PHP manual to Swedish), I still installed the Perl version a couple of weeks ago when I upgraded from 5.0.8 to 5.4.4. I spent hours adding other peoples hacks as well as some of my own and making it work the way I wanted it.

Even though I would have no problem running a PHP-version it still feels quite rough to hear that the Perl version is being dropped so shortly after doing so much work on the Perl installation.

Choosing between using the Perl and the PHP version was hard, since both versions had its drawbacks. One of the reasons I choosed the Perl version was because I thought that would be the one definately being supported in the future. Oh, well.

But none the less, Scream has done a splendid job over the years and I've stayed with W3T since v2.7 since it's simply the best and has had awesome support. Hopefully that won't change at least.

Sponsored Links
Re: Consorting with the enemy [Re: vmcknight] #212461 10/15/2001 3:21 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 374
caymuc Offline
Enthusiast
Offline
Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 374
Hi,

I never considered Infopop as an alternative, if at all, there is some other board out there that I like.. ;)

What I did not like at all about infopop, that they make the impression on their homepage, that they are completely unaffordable with their prices and that the way their software looks like does not at all legitimate that behaviour.

I stayed far away from that company. And now have the fear, that one day there might be extreme charges even for updates of the (what i think surperior) W3T and that I will not be able any more to conrinue with W3T. - I hope my fears are wrong, but I am really concerned right now.

Greetings from Berlin

Last edited by caymuc; 10/15/2001 3:23 PM.

Link Copied to Clipboard
Donate Today!
Donate via PayPal

Donate to UBBDev today to help aid in Operational, Server and Script Maintenance, and Development costs.

Please also see our parent organization VNC Web Services if you're in the need of a new UBB.threads Install or Upgrade, Site/Server Migrations, or Security and Coding Services.
Recommended Hosts
We have personally worked with and recommend the following Web Hosts:
Stable Host
bluehost
InterServer
Visit us on Facebook
Member Spotlight
Gizmo
Gizmo
Portland, OR, USA
Posts: 5,795
Joined: January 2000
Forum Statistics
Forums63
Topics37,528
Posts293,719
Members13,834
Most Online5,166
Sep 15th, 2019
Today's Statistics
Currently Online 115
Topics Created 0
Posts Made 0
Users Online 1
Birthdays 27
Top Posters
AllenAyres 21,079
JoshPet 10,369
LK 7,394
Lord Dexter 6,708
Gizmo 5,795
Greg Hard 4,625
Top Posters(30 Days)
isaac 4
Gizmo 1
Top Likes Received
isaac 30
Gizmo 8
Brett 7
Morgan 2
Top Likes Received (30 Days)
Gizmo 8
isaac 1
The UBB.Developers Network (UBB.Dev/Threads.Dev) is ©2000-2020 VNC Web Services

 
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.4
(Snapshot build 20200126.dev)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.050s Queries: 37 (0.020s) Memory: 3.3294 MB (Peak: 3.5327 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2020-01-27 15:35:12 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS