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#212345 10/12/2001 5:04 PM
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FAQ for WWWThreads Members

Why are you changing the name to UBBThreads?

Our intention was to preserve the history of the Threads name with that portion, while gaining brand recognition with the UBB portion. As we move forward with the product, it will become one of the centerpieces of our offerings, and it makes sense to give it a name that reflects both aspects.

Infopop going to put some effort into making wwwthreads the best forum available?

Absolutely! We love W3T and want to make it the best it can possibly be, hopefully with a lot of input from you!

Will the development process and pace of the development change?

Yes, for the better. Rick will continue to be the lead developer, and will now have much more time to devote to integrating your suggestions into the software. We don’t plan to put too many “cooks” in the development kitchen; we plan to let Rick do his thing with minimal interference.

How much say will users have in the development process?

Rick and all of us at Infopop will be listening (as we are right now) to hear what you want next. We’ll make every effort to adopt the great ideas and let you know if an idea can’t be implemented for some reason.

How much control will Rick have over the development?

Although Infopop will now own the software, Rick will be the lead developer. That means that he will set the pace of development. Of course we will want to cross-pollinate good ideas from W3T into our other products, and make sure that our efforts are coordinated, so Rick will be a key part of our overall development team.

How will Infopop handle the modules and hacks users have developed? Will Infopop charge for add-ons?

Infopop will never stop people from customizing their own boards. We do not have the resources to provide technical support for hacks, so we will be setting up a development site to allow users to exchange hacks with each other and provide each other with technical support.

What is the pricing plan? Will the price change?

Picing will be announced by next Wednesday.

Will the code base remain as clean as it is now?

Since Rick will continue to be the developer, the code will continue to follow his style and organization.

How will licensing work?

Licensing will be based on a per-instance basis.

Will UBB and UBBThreads be turned into a single product?

No. UBB and UBBThreads are, and will remain, separate products.

Who is Infopop’s target client for UBBThreads? Is it different from UBB?

We believe that UBBThreads will be ideal for folks with mid- to large-sized communities who have the technical skill to run a SQL database driven product. UBB will continue to be the portable solution, targeted at communities who may not need the power of a database. Aside from database differences, UBBThreads and UBB will have their own unique characteristics. For instance, many customers desire a threaded approach to topic display; that option will always be an inherent part of UBBThreads, while it will never be part of UBB.

Will this mean that a professional design person will work on the interface?

One of the best aspects of this deal is that a broader complement of development professionals will be available to enhance UBBThreads as necessary. We’d love to hear your specific suggestions on that subject!

Will Rick & the threads community have influence on the final layout/appearance/features?

See answer above…we’d love to hear from you.

Will user hacks be considered for incorporation into the code?

Definitely. While we normally do not incorporate hacks “lock stock and barrel,” we always take a look at the successful hacks that have enhanced the software. For example, UBB is about to release a version that includes a PHP wrapper-accelerator that was created by a user in Europe. And we know that Rick always pays close attention to your input, so he’ll continue to do just that!

Will the wwwthreads support forum be going away as of Monday?

The forums will be moving to a new location on the Infopop website next week. We want to encourage all of you to come on over and continue to share your ideas with Rick and the rest of us at Infopop. Your member data and postings will be brought over and preserved, and the forum names will remain the same for the most part as well. Rick will continue to moderate and administer the forums as he does now.

As the export occurs, you will see messages on this board giving the new address to bookmark. Some content from this board will remain in place as an archive resource, and there will be a test forum open here so that visitors can see the product in action.

Will the PHP version continue to be supported? Will there be a parallel release policy?

Yes, the PHP version will continue to be supported. In fact, all future development efforts will focus on the PHP version. We will be maintaining the Perl version only in terms of releasing bug fixes, and will not be offering professional support for the Perl version.

In talking with Rick the last couple of months, we discussed his development process and concluded that it would be best to commit fully to one platform. Under the current model, too many tradeoffs are required in ensuring synchronization between both PHP and Perl versions. Furthermore, PHP is more scalable than basic Perl and is easier to install.

The current Perl version will be available in the UBBThreads Member Area as an unsupported option. To reiterate, though, we will not be continuing development of the Perl version. We will ensure that the development site discussed above includes support forums for those using the Perl version.

Will the free version still be offered?

We will be offering a trial version that will allow people to test installation of the program. However, like the current demo version for W3T, this trial version will be missing most major features of the licensed product, and will include certain other usage limitations.

What is the timing surrounding all of this?

The complete changeover will occur some time on Thursday, October 18. On that date, UBBThreads will be incorporated into the infopop.com website, payments will be processed on that site, and support will be offered there. On the 17th, the payment pages and member area at wwwthreads.com will be closed as we begin the transition process.

As part of this transition, it will be necessary to reissue all pre-existing W3T licenses. This is necessary because the data was encrypted in such a way that it is not accessible in our systems. Thus, all existing W3T license-holders should expect an email from Infopop prior to the 18th containing their new license number and password. Please be on the lookout for this information because it will be required in order to validate your license.

Ted O'Neill
CEO, Infopop Corporation


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Ted,

Thank you for the FAQ ... It was fairly comprehensive and only contains a couple of bombshells that I would like to query ...

The first is the per-instance license. Although this does not affect me and my site I am sure that some will be affected so my question is what happens to sites where they already have more than one instance running? Do they have to buy a new license or are the terms and conditions laid down when they purchased the license still valid? For that matter, are your new T&Cs only applicable once people have bought a registration through yourselves?

Not supporting the Perl version any longer is again an issue that will not affect me but I am not sure that I am in the majority. May I humbly suggest that this either be reviewed or you allow an unofficial, unsopported version of the Perl system to be kept in step with the PHP one.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys have in mind and how things will progress. I'm keeping an open mind for now but please do try to keep the community spirit that exists here at WWWThreads because that is one of the things that makes this forum solution so attractive.

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No PERL version? Did I read that right? []/testimages/icons/shocked.gif[/] []/testimages/icons/shocked.gif[/]

Per instance licensing... hmm. Sorry to be negative, but there goes that advantage.

I'm not sure if it's in the plans, but if there is going to be a plan to go to a template based system, then the design side of things will probably be even more important, with the need for more example templates. If not, a fresh UI design would probably be welcomed, but with the current setup of the code it's a little tricky and time consuming to revamp the design... one of the reasons many of us have suggested templates. Perhaps a decision on templates could come before design improvements?

Appreciate the answers; just those two points (no PERL version, per instance license policy) are disappointing and I'd be very sorry to see them go.


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I realize the decision on the PERL version may be upsetting to some but this does go along with making the program better. It might seem like a cruel business decision but in the long run, just like this deal, it will be for the best.

With both versions being developed I had to keep the same feature set in each one because it would have been way to confusing to have different features in each version. PHP offers alot of things that I just was unable to do in PERL. The main one being templates. The first attempt I made at this under PERL failed quite miserably when trying to make it run under mod_perl and be somewhat user friendly. PHP will not have this problem. This is going to be a very major undertaking but I've already been experimenting with templates in PHP and they are way easier to create than when I tried them with PERL.

I'll also be able to do some automated scripts for installation and upgrading (which will be one of the first things I will be adding). Again, this could probably be done in PERL as well but the setup is much more complicated with all of the requirements that went along with the PERL version.

You'll also see a much more efficient development cycle. Maintaining both versions was quite time consuming due to developing/porting features and especially tracking bugs down in both versions. I am hoping beta periods will be much quicker and bugs will be fixed on a more timely basis as well.


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That does all sound good... we'll just have to make the decision to go with the new PHP or keep using the old PERL. I've chosen to stick with PERL, and liked the PHP as the option waiting in the wings if I ever saw the need.

I wonder how the automated upgrade scripts would handle modifications. []/testimages/icons/laugh.gif[/] I wouldn't expect them to work together, since it usually takes me at least 4-5 hours to convert the modifications to a new version as it is. I think that's why a lot of us are still at 5.0.9 or 5.1.something. Not sure if that process can ever be improved... no matter how much time Araxis merge saves us! But that's really our problem and our choice, not something you need to worry about.

So the "new posts since last visit" will be a cinch in PHP... right?! []/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/] []/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/]


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Hi all,

guess I'll jump in and say Hi. I'm J.C. I'm the co-moderator of the Graphics, Styles and Templates forum for Infopop, as well as the Admin of UBBDesign.com. We create custom layouts and graphics for the UBB and starting Monday UBBThreads also! I have a forum on our site now for input, questions etc about what we offer. A lot of our custom stuff should be able to be adjusted to work with UBBT. I'm working on installing the demo version this weekend and see what I need to edit and such on our stuff. You're all welcome to stop by!

Hope to see ya there, and here!

J.C.
www.ubbdesign.com


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For those wondering about curernt license agreements being honored. Yes, they will. Anyone that has a current license you are still going to be able to run under the terms of this. So, if you have multiple instances running under the current agreement you will still be able to do so. The per-instance terms will be for new licenses.


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In reply to:

we will not be continuing development of the Perl version.


Way to sneak that in -- shouldn't this have been one of the FIRST things mentioned by Scream when this was announced?

I don't know PHP, and I do NOT have time to learn it, however easy it may be. I do NOT have time to figure out how to port all of my hacks into a different language. So people like me are simply screwed. We can keep our existing boards, and spend our OWN limited time trying to hack in any new features we want, or we can switch over to PHP and either spend AGES translating our hacks into a new language (unfamiliar to some of us), or LOSE all of our hacks.

And of course, never mind those whose hosts don't offer PHP -- they can either move their website, or bugger off.


This is VERY disappointing. Combine it with the change in licensing, the probable price increase, and the move to a company which many people find distasteful, and I think you're going to lose quite a few customers who've supported you, and put lots of time into helping you make this product what it is -- by reporting bugs, by providing FIXES for bugs, by making suggestions, by providing the CODE to implement those suggestions. Of course, those customers will be replaced by new customers, paying more money, and I guess that's what it comes down to.

What a shame.




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The PERL/PHP decision was definitely not just about money. It was about how can we put out a better, if not the best, product. It may seem like a drastic move, but it is logical. I don't like everyone to feel like they need to hack their board to get the features they want. I'm not saying they shouldn't but I would much prefer for the features to just exist. But, when I was doing both versions there was just no possible way I could keep up with everything.

I realize I am still not going to be able to put in everything or do it fast enough so hacking will still be of interest to alot of you. There are already alot of hacks avaible for the PHP version and by concentrating on one version there will be even more.

And for those of you that just do not want to switch, period, the new site that is going to be created will be devoted to hacking both the PERL and the PHP version. So, if you'd rather just continue on using the PERL version I'm sure there will be alot of interesting hacks coming out for it because people won't have to worry about how it will break when upgrading.


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In reply to:

Way to sneak that in -- shouldn't this have been one of the FIRST things mentioned by Scream when this was announced?

I don't know PHP, and I do NOT have time to learn it, however easy it may be. I do NOT have time to figure out how to port all of my hacks into a different language. So people like me are simply screwed. We can keep our existing boards, and spend our OWN limited time trying to hack in any new features we want, or we can switch over to PHP and either spend AGES translating our hacks into a new language (unfamiliar to some of us), or LOSE all of our hacks.



You said it! This is also my biggest disappointment, this deal is already with this "little detail" quite bitter. I can only hope this will be reconsidered... otherwise, you can count me out. I really don't have the time to learn PHP, even though I would like to, but I have a very busy full time job (if that's what you call weeks with up to 44 hrs teaching!) that just won't allow that. I will just have to keep my modified 5.0.9er and keep adding hacks here and there... very sad... and disappointed indeed! With all the hacks my boards have, they are irreplacable and not offered in the release. Unless the perl version is continued, I seriously doubt I will upgrade ever again. []/testimages/icons/frown.gif[/]


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In reply to:

The PERL/PHP decision was definitely not just about money. It was about how can we put out a better, if not the best, product. It may seem like a drastic move, but it is logical.



Scream, it may be logical from your point. But, let's look at that from our perspective. You will now have access to far more resources from ubb now, you should have lots more time to work on code since you won't have to be everything to everyone (ie, billing, support, etc.) and there will pretty much be someone else running the hacking forum... How is that decision logical to us? And it would be interesting to see what percentage of your customers are running perl vs. php -- which I assume you know and is relatively small or you wouldn't have made a blind decision like that to drop one of the products - what if 60% (or more) of your customers are using it.

In reply to:

I don't like everyone to feel like they need to hack their board to get the features they want



But that's been the hallmark of the development of this product, hasn't it. As I see it, your first and foremost goal should be always looking to improve the product, performance first, features second. Why, because visitors won't leave our sites because we don't have some cutesy smiley faces they can use, but they damn well will leave it when it takes over a minute for pages to load - and they'll leave faster than the time it took them to get there in the first place. And the hacking community will always be finding things to add in, some will make it in, others won't and probably shouldn't. And that's fine - most of us like the product because we can do just that - if we want. And that's our decision to make and why a number of people chose this product over others.


At this point, I'm not sure I'd want them to reconsider. We've been written off as the unwanted stepchildren that I guess they see us as and if they did reconsider, how much attention could we really expect them to give to it... And I'd rather have the product to use as-is than a product with "well, I guess we HAVE to put these features and bug fixes in, so make it quick" upgrades that we would always have to worry about.

"No mommy, I don't wanna go back to living in the attic"

"But Junior, I thought you liked the attic"

"Waaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh"


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I never liked the perl version because of the fact I don't know enough perl to code any hacks. I was about ready to switch to vbulletin, even bought a license, then scream announced the php port. I know php. Picked up on it back when it was in its infancy and love it. Much more can be accomplished with php with less effort than with perl. One suggestion since you are going to devote all the time to php is to modularize the code. This will make it easy to upgrade to each version if you put in the ability to add hacks as modules. You upgrade the core and any new features you add you add them as plugins. Once you have a stable base, which of course would mean a complete rewrite, you add any new features as modules. If there is a bug fix release all you would have to do is code an upgrade script which would update the core files. Nobody would have to waste many hours re-adding hacks because the hacks would be in seperate files. And when you add new features you wouldn't have to touch the core of the software. In the beginning it would be a lot of work, but, in the end it would be much easier to incorporate new features and much easier for users that hack there fourm to upgrade.
The decision to only support the php version is making me think that I might stay arround for a while and see what shakes out. I like w3t and would like to trust Infopop, but, right now I just don't know what to do.

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I definitely can understand your point. Yes, I will have alot more time to spend on the actual development. But still, keeping both versions in development my time is split. As I mentioned, the feature set would always need to remain the same because it would be virtually impossible for me to keep both versions going with a different feature set as it would no longer be a straight port when adding features from one to another.

As for customer useage. There have been alot of current customers that have switched from PERL to the PHP version because PHP is easier on the server under high traffic. And the vast majority of new customers are going with the PHP version.

I have spent alot of time in the past on optimizing the code for speed. I haven't had the time to get into mysql optimizations but this is one thing I've suggested that we do spend some time on, setup a forum for, etc. Speed is definitely a focus. Which is another reason PHP is the logical version to focus on. Most everyone wants templates. Dynamic templates under PERL, especially mod_perl is virtually impossible to do without some major slowdown issues.

This is why I said it was logical. I think everyone wants to have the best product for the money they spend. And instead of only getting 50% of my development time on the product they purchase they will get 100%.


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[:blue]It was about how can we put out a better, if not the best, product.

I don't doubt that you can put out the best PHP product... AFAIK you already have. But what about everyone who wants PERL? We're looking at our last public release, and InfoPop "won't be providing professional support" for it... whatever that means.

Will current PERL users who do not agree to the new InfoPop terms or purchase an upgrade extension be able to log in to the new UUBDev forum where both PERL and PHP hacks are to be discussed and posted, and be able to participate and download hacks for W3T 5.4.4PERL? Or will they be forced to maintain a license to download hacks and participate in the forum?

Why not just leave this site here as it is and move all PHP stuff over to the new InfoPop forums? Since the PERL version will always be W3T, why not leave it at wwwthreads.com and to be discussed here?


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Modularizing the code sounds like it could be worth the time. I'd need to look into what all needs to be changed but when I introduce templates I'm going to have to make some major changes anyway so this might be a good time to look into it.


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Hi :-(

I must add that the dropping of the perl version is a severe disappointment to me. Whilst I would like to eventually move to the php version for performance reasons, as many others I have several hacks which will take a long time to port nevermind learning php!. An announcement that the perl version would cease in 12 months time would have been more appropriate giving all the time to implement any changes.

I'm glad that UBB is not merging with w3t--When I made the choice almost two years ago, it was to reject UBB. Maybe one of the reasons was because it was too well know. I don't want users on my board to come there because of the software we use, but because of the content and interaction we provide. I choose the s/w which best facilitates that. To be frank, I don't particularly want to be associated with ubb as it stereotypes us.

I've always trusted Scream and his active presence on these boards have been the reason I chose w3t and recommended it to a few others too. w3t is priced well and allows one to develop small fun sites which aren't out to make tonnes of money but to create a community. I am not sure if Infopop can resist milking this community. I would warn them that if they do this, they will simply drive people to alternatives like vBulletin which are already gaining popularity.

Today's announcement is a worrying sign of what might start happening when the corporate interests take over. I certainly will be holding back recommending w3t/u3t for a couple of months to see what else is in store. I understand that coding takes time (and even Scream needs to make a living) and so the move from a free to a licensed version was justified. I don't really believe the "I need more time to code" angle as licensing could have been outsourced without selling the rights to the code.

If there's anything to celebrate, it's probably the fact Infopop felt w3t threatened their product too much. :-) I don't mean to sound negative--I wish Scream all the best in the future but also I'd like to thank him for the past years of development he's given us.


Sebastien.


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For those that don't want to switch the dev site will have a section for PERL. And I'm hoping that this is where those people will choose to congregate as we really do have a nice community going and this should be able to carry over.

As for keeping the PERL version boards here, the wwwthreads domains will be pointing to Infopop in the next week or 2 otherwize we could do that. Will need to talk more with the guys from the Dev site to see what all they have in mind but I think this should work out well.


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For Extrm_Bob,
In reply to:

I don't know enough perl to code any hacks.... Much more can be accomplished with php with less effort than with perl.



Wrong, maybe for you, but not for everyone. This isn't a criticism, but both php and perl are just tools to accomplish goals. I might feel that I can do better at banging in nails with a screwdriver because I've never used a hammer or don't know how to use one. In the right hands either tool can be a very very effective one and as to which is better, opinions vary, and since I've never used php, you can probably figure which way my opinion goes. But it's just that, my opinion.

For Scream,

I can understand it's more work and feature sets would need to remain the same and I certainly understand you probably had a very difficult time making that decision and that you probably anticipated some of the comments you are getting now... And in case for any reason I haven't thanked you for a great product, Thank You. While I commend you for making the difficult decision and what you feel was best for the product, I just find it disheartening since here we've spent a lot of money (not even counting our own man hours spent working with this) and that now the product we use will now go unsupported.

In reply to:

PHP is easier on the server under high traffic



Maybe in a comparison against plain perl, but that's not really a fair comparison now is it. Let me give you a quick stat on our forums, running both web and database on a single server with mod_perl, mod_gzip and plenty of other stuff running, including an ad banner system running under plain perl. 57 users online right now, mysql cpu usage is 9% and load is 1.3. At one point when I was looking at this info last night it was like 140 users online and mysql at 18-22% cpu, iirc. And that's on a freebsd box which is not running the linux threads library but does have a dedicated mysql install for the forums. And I know we can do even better.

In reply to:

Speed is definitely a focus. Which is another reason PHP is the logical version to focus on. Most everyone wants templates. Dynamic templates under PERL, especially mod_perl is virtually impossible to do without some major slowdown issues.



I hope it will be, that's what we have spent and been spending a lot of money on here because we couldn't wait for the development cycle to catch up. But again, please don't argue that php is the logical tool for either speed or templates. Speed I covered above and for templates I only have to point to gossamer-threads.com's products... links sql has supported templates for quite some time, it runs great under mod_perl and last time I checked they did not have any of their products in php. Their webmail and (now) forum packages run the same. We own copies of both links sql and their webmail product because we wanted the best products for the money we spent and that's why we bought w3t too. Ultimately it still comes down to a personal preference for the person doing the programming and what their capabilities, and preferences, are. It's just that php is not my tool of choice and I do very well now without it.

And for seb

In reply to:

If there's anything to celebrate, it's probably the fact Infopop felt w3t threatened their product too much.



Scream has developed a great product but from ubb's perspective, I'm not sure they felt as threatened by Scream as they should be of gossamer-threads. As a one-man show, it's always much harder to compete with the "big boys" and this decision could make a great combination. But the timing of all this along with gossamer's announcement of their own forum software (which is threaded), combined with all their other community tools and the ability to integrate everything into a single login and have templates, if I were ubb, I'd be very worried. Their products aren't the cheapest on the market, but damn they are impressive.


Please don't take any of this the wrong way, I'm simply expressing my disappointment over the decision that was made in the world of how it affects me. Because the perl version will be unsupported, I don't think it's a stretch to assume than any of the performance gains that come from future optimizations of mysql and such will ever find their way into the perl version, which is a shame for everyone who wants to or has to still run the perl version.

Here's a thought. Take it for what it's worth. Maybe there's an opportunity to sell off the perl development branch to someone who would be interested in and capable of growing that. Yes I understand it would compete to some extent, but with a limitation of no php development (which is all ubb is interested in) and some sort of royalty deal on sales, who knows, maybe someone is out there for this... yeah, yeah, it's a wild off the wall idea, but there could be a win-win in there for someone.


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I'm curious about the fate of the current perl codebase. Will it become unavailable, completely shelved? Or will the final version continue to be available for download to registered users?

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Again you bring up alot of good points. When i mentioned the speed difference between PHP and PERL I was talking plain perl. The main reason being if you don't have your own server then chances are you won't be allowed to run under mod_perl. At least I haven't found a hosting company yet that will support it, unless you buy your own dedicated server[]/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/]. So it is really a good point about PHP because you can get the same speed without the need to be on a dedicated server.

Gossamer-threads does have excellent scripts and yes they do support templates. But they generate html pages, last I checked. I very well could be wrong, but the demo of links sql says they still do. Everything here is on the fly, dynamic. If I could change it to build static html pages then there would not be a problem at all. I'm not saying that it can't be done because I made an attempt at this about a year ago. And we did have templates going on a test site but as soon as we got some traffic it went downhill.

I used to be a total PERL nut. PHP? Why, I can do everything I need to do in PERL. I was very reluctant to try doing anything with PHP but once I got started I immediately saw the advantages. Like I said it is going to allow me to do alot of things that I wouldn't be able to do in PERL. I'm not saying that PHP is the only way to go, or that PERL sucks because that's just not true. PERL is great and it did very well for building this product but I just see a big advantage of using PHP to take it to the next level.

Anywho, all I'm out to do is put out a good product. I know alot of people think it might be about the money. I know that if I say it's not then I just sound like Alex Rodriguez[]/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/], but it's not. I work a full time day job that I really enjoy and I have built this thing in my spare time only, just because I enjoy it. I could see that I was going to start falling behind other forums because I couldn't spend enough time developing features so I had a couple of choices. Either quit my day job, and that isn't going to happen. Take on a few development partners, which would have increased the backend headache. Or sell to someone that was going to allow me to just focus on development and making the customers happy. Hopefully, given time the decision will be seen as wise. I realize I may lose a few of you, which I truly don't want to happen, but I don't want to just keep a good product going. I want this thing to be great![]/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/]


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The final version will still be in the members area. And if there are any bugs that are found I will be fixing these and the release will be updated.


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I myself have no problem with the Perl/PHP debate, as it wont really affect me other than in the good way... I am still using the perl version, but just because I havent had time to switch and upgrade yet (still on version 5.2).

But, I would suggest, in view of those who will not be able to run the php version (surprised there are still hosting companies that provide perl but not php...) that though development of the Perl version not be continued... there still be bug fixes. I think it would be a correct thing to do, to though not adding features, fix all bugs that are discovered... I think by doing so you could feel more at peace in saying goodbye to the Perl version.

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For those that will be wanting to switch over to the PHP version you won't lose any data. Basically you can upgrade your PERL version to the latest 5.4.4 PERL release and then grab the PHP version. You can then setup and point the PHP version to your old database and you are good to go.


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Rick,

Well I guess I am gone then... I am sorry but you all saying PHP is better then PERL... Well Everything I do for a living and make a pretty damn good money at... I do everything in PERL due to the ability to be implement on multiple platforms and the ease of use... I have found MANY issues with PHP that it cant do... So... since you all are telling us Perl people to go f ourselfs... I am gone... Sorry to hear this... Even after I offered my help... Sad...

Billy S.

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Hi all
its really bad news to hear that will go only with php [sad]
In reply to:

Like I said it is going to allow me to do alot of things that I wouldn't be able to do in PERL




Why ? I learned both of Perl and PHP .. I found Perl is more more better than PHP .. Perl can do anything that PHP can do .
maybe PHP is easier to develope in .. but it has less powerful then perl
Don't forget that there is a lots of modules can help you in adding features .. like CGI module (you don't have to write your own function for get inputs or cookies or to write cookies) CGI module is standard module (come with all last Perl packages) and its make the programming funny and easy []/testimages/icons/smile.gif[/]

Anyhow ... this is your product .. but a lots of customers will leave WWWThreads for that reason
Its up to you .. you choose Lots of Customers or PHP []/testimages/icons/wink.gif[/]

With me best Regards
eDeveloper


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The thing is, I cannot rely on a variety of modules. A good majority of users don't have the experience/knowledge to install modules or they are not on a host that will install them. The CGI module is quite powerful but it is very big as well. Back when I first went commercial there was an offshoot of the GPL'd code that ported everything over to using CGI.pm. Eventually they had to pull this out because it started to bog down heavily on moderate traffic.

By no means am I saying PERL is not good enough. I still develop many of programs at work in PERL where I have control of the environment, but on a broadscale basis PHP doesn't require anything extra to be installed.


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What I would like to know is...

If one has purchased a copy of wwwthreads - is the annual renewal cost going to rocket under UBB.

I mean UBB annual cost is four times what wwwthreads is.

Your answer will be - the prices will be announced by Wednesday - but we need guarantees here...

Call me sceptical, but I think the prices will double, if not quadrouple under ubb - i would like to be proved wrong, but UBB have always come accross as greedy on pricing.

Also - UBB is one of the most pirated pieces of software out there (after win2000!!) - are we going to see wwwthreads going the same way?

There must be a reason why such short notice was given, perhaps UBB do not want to many UBB forum users switching over before the move.

Let's have some honest answers.

What I have read here so far, is nothing but disgraceful to all the wwwthreads users, who have remained loyal.



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Very sad indeed!!!!I won't have any possibility to continue changing our old forums to wwwthreads, which I chose to be the best. I don't have PHP, I don't have time to learn it. I have used very much money for Wwwthreads allready and just for vain....I hope gossamer-threads gforum will be the answer. They won't at least change from perl to php in one night.Lauri

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I'm not going to try to answer for Rick but I am going to answer from the point of view of a long-time user of WWWThreads and from the point of view of someone whose contributions have been included in the official version.

If you are woried about the annual renewal costs, renew for 10 years now before Infopop take over. I'm sure that in 10 years there will be a better solution so you'll be safe until then.

If WWWThreads becomes heavilly pirated then does that affect you beyond the fact that you have paid for your original version and any upgrades? Are you loosing money?

Have you considered the fact that maybe Rick gets very little income from this software. Do you know how many registered users there are? Do you know how many people renew their licenses each year? Perhaps the choice was between doing a deal or simply packing this in. Would that have been better?

In all honesty, if Rick said, "Fine, I'll make you all happy and not do the deal with Infopop. Oh yes, instead I'm going to stop developing WWWThreads. Bye.", I wouldn't blame him. You own your copy of WWWThreads. You can use your existing version, and any upgraded version obtained whilst you still have a license to download it for as long as you want. UBB users cannot. New WWWThreads users may not be able to. You can. Think about that and be thankful that, whatever might happen on Thursday, you can still use your existing version and hack it to your heart's content. Be thankful that Rick and WWWThreads are not simply disappearing.

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I understand that a new forum will be set up tomorrow. What will happen with the content of this forum (ie. q&a, hacks, bugs, feedback, installation whishlist and so on)? Could it be imported directly into the new forum? Also there may be things of general interest here that may not be suitable there -- so could they be kept as closed/archived threads anyway?


PS. I don't remember seeing any mention of the software that will power the new forums but I presume it will be w3t, right?

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The actual switch is going to take place on Thursday. I'm not sure about which forums will be imported over to the new site. I believe the customizing/hack forums will go over to the new dev site. As for what software it will be running I belive they are moving everything over to OpenTopic. Instead of having to check a bunch of different forums it allows everyone to focus on one area. For support reasons it makes sense. There will be a demo board up for testing and that I should be able to do betas on as well. But again, some of this is speculation. I'm not sure on all of the details just yet.


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In reply to:

As for what software it will be running I belive they are moving everything over to OpenTopic.



Yikes! I'm sorry to be critical Rick, but that's about the craziest thing I've seen on the W3T boards today. Nearly 100% of the people going to the W3T support forums will be experienced with using W3T, and very few of them will be experienced with OpenTopic. Why force them to use something they're not comfortable with? OK, maybe the InfoPop support people are more comfortable with OpenTopic, but shouldn't they spend some real time using W3T so that they know what they're supporting? What will potential customers think when they see that W3T isn't used for its own support forum? It makes it look like the vendor doesn't believe the software is up to the task.

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The support staff will be installing and using the forums so they get to know it. No need to apologize for being critical, it does seem a bit odd, but it's similar to other companies. Most companies do all their support on one forum instead of setting up a different forum for each product. Infopop is in a unique situation that they have 3 different forum products now. It makes it easy to go to one place to post your questions and answers.

I know, throw more fuel on the fire[]/testimages/icons/laugh.gif[/], but again let's see how this works out.


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Sad to hear the PERL version will not be continued. Sad may be not the right word for this situation... I started to learn PERL because of this forum, because of w3t. I bought books, spent nights to understand the code, make smaller changes and implement existing hacks from other users. My forum has got a lot of modifications, too. And I don't want to think about the time I need to switch over to PHP []/testimages/icons/frown.gif[/]. It may take me several months to complete this task, because I'm not familiar with PHP and I'm only able to do it in my free time.
And after all the effort it takes, the result will not be seen from the user. It's just the same forum as before, nothing has changed. All this only to keep up with the future features? Unwillingly...

PS: Anybody interested in a very good PERL-book (german, addison-wesley)?

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I sure hope the file attachment bug is worked out in the php version (if it has been fixed, the help pages need to be updated in the win2000 section). I'm currently using the perl version, just got file attachments working, and the visitors love it... I have alot of reservations about the change. I've spent the past few days going over infopops site...It's very cold and unfriendly. I checked out the pricing and was shocked!! I can't afford that type of pricing! UBB is on sale now for $125 (normally $249 []/testimages/icons/shocked.gif[/]). And that is for an Individual/Fledgling (0-4) organization????!!? What is that exactly?

Judging soley on their silence and avoidance of the price change issue, I'll quote Han solo..."I've got a bad feeling about this..."

I guess we'll know soon enough...

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New licenses only or will this also apply to new renewals also which would then kill the old terms? Makes a big difference, of course I am not sure how it will effect me at this point as I don't have php installed on any of the boxes so it is a mute point at present. In addition, my programmer does not know php at this point.


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At first I was happy about this, then I remembered something

I got banned from the infopop forums after posting details of a bug in the support forums. Bit stupid if you ask me, I asked for some help with a problem I was having, my message got deleted and I got an email saying that there had been warnings about what I had posted before (yet a search revealed none, a mod later admited that they had been deleted) and that I was being banned for posting details of a bug that could cause damage to customers boards. Here was a bug that I knew nothing about, as administrator of a board I like to know these things, one of my users knew about it and had done a fair bit of damage with it, the solution was simple and explained in the email but, the damage had already been done. This got me thinking, how many more bugs was there out there that I didnt know about, and I decided to go to wwwthread boards instead as they seemed to have a more open community rather than ban first ask questions later. Now the support is going to be infopop, ok so I havent really needed much support but it was nice to know that it was there if i needed it, now thats been taken away from me []/testimages/icons/frown.gif[/]

On the pluys side, I think this is going to be good, wwwthreads has needed a good rewrite and I think you are now going to have the time to do that, the decission to drop perl is going to be controversial but for those of us who use PHP its great news, I think good days are ahead of ubbthreads, thats if infopop dont over price it

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Yes that is also my impression.
These people make me really concerned with their price-policy.
I am not Daimler Crysler. :)

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Yes ..... it's realy sad to hear about perl version frown .....

I have bought a special script (chat) around 160 US$ ... just to make it work for wwwthreads as integrated with the W3Tusers ... and i hacked it to work with mysql ..... and it have more then 15 perl files .... []/testimages/icons/frown.gif[/] .....but i am sure that it will not work with PHP version ..... realy sad about this ......

any way ..... there is nothing to do in our hand .... i mean ... hope this step will move w3t to the top of discussion board products .....


Good luck Scream ....... and wish u the best .....

Regards
BMH

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Just FYI to the perl lovers out here... I would really like for us to form a Perl Support group where we can do upgrades to the current Perl Version and stuff and keep it going on our own without the financial backing of any corparation...

Maybe even make our own little forum system from the design layout that Rick has been so great in developeing...

Cause some things I will be doing to my version of W3T is making it use modules instead of having built in parsing stuff. Stuff like that...

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